I mean... It was actually a mosque focused on religious education when it was founded. It didn't become a an accredited university until the 20th century, but I mean I guess we can move the goal posts some more if we want.
“…do you not understand how other modern universities started?”
Yes, actually I do. Many universities evolved out of religious institutions. That’s exactly the point. Being founded as a religious school doesn’t automatically make something equivalent to what we now define as a university. Institutions like University of Oxford developed into degree-granting, corporately structured institutions with recognized faculties, charters, and governance systems. Simply saying “others started religious too” skips over the structural differences that define a university.
“…accreditation for universities wasn’t a thing until the 19th century, so I don’t know what you expect that proves?”
Accreditation in the modern sense didn’t exist, sure. But formal recognition, charters, and institutional frameworks absolutely did. Medieval universities operated under papal bulls, royal charters, or legal privileges that formally established them as universities. So the absence of modern accreditation doesn’t mean there were no standards or distinctions at all. The question isn’t “was there 19th-century accreditation?” it’s whether the institution functioned as a university in the historical sense of the term.
Calling that “moving the goalposts” doesn’t make it so. It’s clarifying definitions.
And as for “tilting at windmills” that only works if the argument being challenged doesn’t exist. This at its core is a disagreement about classification and historical continuity. That isn't imaginary it’s a definitional and historical debate.
If you want to argue it qualifies as a university from inception, then please make the case based on the structure, curriculum, governance, and recognition not just origin story comparisons.
You’re arguing against things I didn’t say, and then attributing motives I never expressed.
First, this has nothing to do with Christianity vs. Islam, or “civilizing” narratives. That framing is rhetorical escalation, not argument. The question isn’t whether a Muslim polity can grant a “real” charter. Of course it can. The question is whether the institutional structure at the time matches the historical definition of a university as that term is used by historians.
There’s a difference between:
A mosque or madrasa centered on religious instruction, even if advanced and prestigious
And a corporate, self-governing universitas with multiple faculties (law, medicine, arts, theology), standardized curricula, and degree structures
European medieval universities weren’t considered universities merely because they were Christian. They were recognized as such because they developed specific institutional characteristics: legal corporate identity, degree hierarchies (bachelor, master, doctor), cross-disciplinary faculties, and recognized privileges.
If you’re arguing that University of al-Qarawiyyin met those same structural criteria prior to the 20th century, then make that case clearly. Point to its governance model, faculty structure, degree system, and legal status in comparable terms. That’s a historical comparison, not cultural chauvinism.
The existence of diplomas in the 13th century is evidence of credentialing, yes. But credentialing alone does not automatically equal “university” in the specific medieval European sense. Many institutions granted ijazahs (teaching licenses) without being structured as universities in the corporate sense used in Latin Christendom. That’s a structural distinction, not a civilizational hierarchy.
Also, I didn’t accuse you of moving the goalposts in this exchange, I was clarifying it, so correcting me for something I didn’t say is ironic given the complaint about “tilting at windmills.”
As for that phrase: in modern usage, “tilting at windmills” generally means attacking a perceived opponent or mischaracterized position. If you think I mischaracterized your argument, say that directly. But redefining the idiom mid-rant doesn’t strengthen your case.
Strip away the sarcasm and insults, and the real issue is definitional:
Are we using “university” in a broad sense meaning “any advanced institution of higher learning,” or in the narrower historical sense tied to specific medieval corporate structures?
That’s the disagreement. It isn’t about religion. It isn’t about legitimacy of Muslim polities. It’s about institutional classification.
If we can’t keep it at that level, then we’re not debating history, we’re trading accusations.
You’re still treating disagreement over classification as if it must stem from prejudice. That leap is doing most of the rhetorical work here.
Let’s slow this down.
My original point referenced two things:
Its founding as a mosque-centered institution of religious learning
Its formal modern accreditation occurring in the 20th century
Neither of those statements automatically equals “therefore it wasn’t legitimate before Europeans approved it.” That’s an inference you’re adding.
You accuse me of shifting definitions, but the definition has actually been consistent: a university in the historical sense is a corporate, self-governing body of scholars with juridical recognition and degree-granting authority embedded in a defined institutional structure.
If al-Qarawiyyin meets that definition in its premodern form, then demonstrate it on those criteria.
What doesn’t advance the argument:
Suggesting that mentioning 20th-century accreditation implies “White Man recognition”
Assuming structural debate equals dismissal of Muslim polities
Treating definitional precision as prejudice
IAt this point the disagreement is very narrow:
Is the term “university” being used:
A) descriptively, for any long-standing institution of higher learning that granted advanced credentials
or
B) technically, for a specific institutional form that originated in medieval Europe and has identifiable structural markers?
Yes, mosques were major centers of learning, and yes, madrasas were formal institutions of higher scholarship. No serious historian denies that. The question isn’t whether they were sophisticated or prestigious. They clearly were.
The debate is whether the madrasa model functioned as a corporate juridical body in the same way the medieval European universitas did.
Madrasas generally operated through:
Endowments (waqf)
Individual scholars granting ijazahs (licenses to teach specific texts)
Study circles tied to particular teachers
Administrative oversight embedded in religious or political authority
What they typically did not have was:
A single incorporated body of masters and students with collective legal standing
A standardized multi-faculty structure under one corporate identity
Degree hierarchies equivalent to bachelor/master/doctor conferred by the institution itself rather than by individual scholars
That distinction is structural, not civilizational.
Saying “they do stuff differently” understates the difference. The difference is not about religion or content. It’s about legal personality and corporate organization.
You can absolutely argue that the European definition is too narrow or too culturally specific. That’s a fair historiographical critique. But saying there’s “no meaningful difference” isn’t accurate — there are documented differences in governance, legal status, and credentialing models.
So the real disagreement is this:
Do we define “university” broadly as any enduring institution of advanced learning that granted recognized credentials?
Or do we use the term in its specific medieval legal-institutional sense?
If you choose the broader definition, then al-Qarawiyyin clearly qualifies very early.
If you choose the narrower juridical definition, then historians debate whether the madrasa structure fits that category prior to modern reforms.
In short, it's not a university. And that's okay. Trying to pigeonhole it into that definition is the issue.
Prove it's a university. You can't because it's not and wasn't until the 20th century. Maybe if you weren't chronically online you might actually know something about it.
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