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< DOJ National Security Boss Is Moving On — But Cyber, China Threats Aren't

December 31, 20205:01 AM ET

DOJ National Security Boss Is Moving On — But Cyber, China Threats Aren't

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STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:

For the past few years, a man named John Demers has had a big job. He's been leading the Justice Department's National Security Division. He took the job in the aftermath of Russia's interference in the 2016 election. As he prepares to leave office with the Trump administration, the U.S. is dealing with another massive hack.

JOHN DEMERS: Well, there is a certain symmetry to all of this.

INSKEEP: Demers spoke with NPR's Ryan Lucas about his time in office.

RYAN LUCAS, BYLINE: As the head of the Justice Department's National Security Division, John Demers has overseen cases against Iranian hackers, Islamic State terrorists and American turncoats. But he spent much of his time focused on two foreign adversaries, Russia and China. That point was hammered home by Russia's recent hack of U.S. government agencies.

DEMERS: In terms of this hack, it's - I mean, it's quite significant, although, you know, we're still working to understand the scope of it, the breadth of it and the depth of it.

LUCAS: But Demers says from what he's seen so far, it appears to be different from Russia's cyberattack on the 2016 U.S. election, when the Kremlin wanted to sow chaos and undermine democracy.

DEMERS: This looks like more what a nation-state would traditionally try to do through human means, through spies, but trying to do it through technical means and cyber intrusions.

LUCAS: While the Russian hacks are bookends to the Trump administration, U.S. officials say China is America's No. 1 long-term rival. They've accused China of waging a relentless campaign to steal U.S. intellectual property, government secrets and academic information to try to replace the U.S. as the world's preeminent economic and military power. From his perch at the Justice Department, Demers says China stands alone in its plundering of American corporate secrets.

DEMERS: We do see some other countries engaging episodically in economic espionage, but none of them on the scale and sophistication and persistence of the Chinese government.

LUCAS: Demers says 80% of the Justice Department's industrial espionage cases involve the Chinese government, while two-thirds of its trade theft cases involve a Chinese company. In the past few years alone, the DOJ has unsealed dozens of indictments related to China. It's charged American and Chinese researchers and businesspeople for stealing everything from high-tech wireless design to turbine technology. It's brought cases against U.S. academics for failing to disclose ties to the Chinese government. And on the political espionage front, three former U.S. intelligence officers have been convicted of spying for Beijing, while a fourth is facing charges. The department's crackdown hasn't brought an end to China's operations, and it won't. But that doesn't mean it's not having an effect, Demers says.

DEMERS: These prosecutions are not silver bullets that are going to make the problem go away. The Chinese are very persistent. The will is there, and the resourcing is there. But we're going to call attention to it. And we're going to shine a light on it. And we're going to make their job harder and harder.

LUCAS: One thing the department's indictments do is disrupt China's activities. Demers points to a case of a Chinese intelligence officer who was extradited to the U.S. from Belgium in 2018 for allegedly trying to steal jet plane technology.

DEMERS: The significance of that wasn't just a disruption of that avenue of economic espionage. The other significance was making the Chinese think twice and more than twice about using Europe as a safe place to meet Americans who they were trying to co-opt.

LUCAS: In other words, it sent a signal to China's spies that they no longer had a free hand in Europe for such operations. Demers says he's seen an impact on China's activities in Europe since then, but he declined to provide details.

As Demers' time leading the National Security Division comes to a close with the change in administration, he sees plenty of work ahead for the Biden team. One growing challenge that he'd focus on, Demers says, is countering China's covert efforts to influence U.S. policymakers.

Ryan Lucas, NPR News, Washington.

(SOUNDBITE OF HIDDEN ORCHESTRA'S "TIRED AND AWAKE")

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