My therapist made a comment about how China is a failed socialist experiment because they have 2-3 year olds working in factories. I responded "So we've been told." She looks at me like I'm crazy. (Not a great look for a therapist) "I've not seen any evidence of that."
"Because they're such a closed country!"
"Which means you have no evidence to your point either?"
"Well, missionaries... anyway!"
The idea that China is a "closed country" is fucking wild, there are literally hundreds of millions of people travelling in and out of there every single year, not to mention the tons of Chinese people who work and study abroad who are in regular contact with their families back home, and likewise all the foreigners who work and study in China doing the same.
You should ask your therapist if they are an r/worldnews mod lmfao
It’s a “closed country” due to the something called the “Chinese language” which creates a black box of communication between westerners and Chinese comrades.
the great wall of china was a language barrier all along
I think she's thinking of bygone times when they were more closed off. I mentioned that they have opened up, to which she replied, "Just a little." I think there're too many brainworms, for me to help root out in the relatively short time I see her. I just needed to complain a little.
I mentioned that they have opened up,
FOUR DECADES AGO. I am reminded of people who think Russia is still commie
It's always bizarrely funny to me when someone's conception of a foreign country is frozen in the era when they grew up. Like a guy I knew who, when I tried to explain that Japan is a semi-colony of the US, responded "actually the US is a semi-colony of Japan because they make all our electronics and could paralyze our economy by cutting us off from trade."
This guy after learning the bubble burst:
actually the US is a semi-colony of China because they make all our electronics and could paralyze our economy by cutting us off from trade
my parents' generation grew up hearing some variation of "finish your dinner, because there are starving children in China" and they can't really let go of when they were kids and it was one of the poorest countries in the world
Russia defeated the nazis and the world will never forgive them for it.
Thanks for the correction, it’s easy to conflate the two due to decades of western propaganda
Westerners do seem to have a view of China that's stuck in the 1960s in terms of politics and 1980s in terms of development. Hence the insane cope when people present them with images of even 3rd tier Chinese cities.
She said missionaries which is a huge red flag (the bad kind)
https://www.opendoors.org/en-US/persecution/countries/china/
is listed as #17 between Iraq and Burkina Faso
"Because they're such a closed country!"
"Which means you have no evidence to your point either?"
"Well, missionaries... anyway!"
YOU CAN GO THERE ON VACATION
BUSINESSMEN GO THERE ALL THE TIME
ENGLISH TEACHERS
The millions of Chinese traveling the world as tourists and international students were all once toddlers in a sweatshop too ya know
Tbf the Chinese international students I had at my university all came from very wealthy backgrounds
Wrong, they're all mind-wiped sleeper agents made to BELIEVE they're from wealthy backgrounds. With the exception of God-Chairman Mao—who is alive and sitting upon the golden throne, as the immortal guardian of authoritarianism—all Chinese citizens are sweatshop workers.
If you think about it, this is the only explanation that makes sense.
The Immortal Zhuxi lies within his crystal tomb, ever vigilant. It is said that a million peppercorn souls are consumed a day to fuel His immense hunger from the psychic strain of repelling the ravenous Sparrow from the borders of the Middle Kingdom.
Of course, that must be why they have never spilled the beans on the toddler factories, they own them!
If you do go there and report back, they'll tell you that all the people you see are actors (like North Korea) or that they're the upper strata of society so not representative of the gajillions hidden away in prison camps or whatever they need to pivot to.
My partner and I live in the middle of nowhere, and multiple teachers from the school they used to work at went there over summer break the one year they were working there lmao
My fellow Americans: "politicians always lie, only care about themselves and would sell their own mother for pennies"
Me: "so we don't trust what they have to say about foreign countries they want to start wars with right?"
EVERY single time.
"A 3 year old? Really? You believe that 3 year olds who can't put the blocks in the right holes have the dexterity and mental capacity to be useful factory workers? Is that really what you believe?"
New type of guy: Abolish child labour because I don't trust kids to do good work.
Related to the "do you have any idea how expensive slaves were?" Type of guy
youre joking, but that was indeed a line of argumentation used by child labor opponents in britain during the XIXth century.
ahh, sorry. its just that in my language we either use roman numerals or full words for this, so it didnt even occur to me that one could use indo-arabic numerals, lmao
Fake news. All the blocks go in the square hole
Idk about 3 year olds in China, but in Capital Marx does describe 4 year old factory workers in England so tbh "common sense" isnt a good argument here imo
Back then you could use children for things like filling bags and boxes with screws and nuts or whatever, but I very much doubt any of that sort of stuff isn't being made in huge automated factories in China at this point.
Someone else has made a point re: object permanence not kicking it i find more convincing
Regarding this point, in marxs time it was less "fill bags and boxes" and more "run stuff back and forth" or "squeeze into the machine and see if you can see whats jamming it", "sort these products into groups" or "push this button every time X happens"
I can't imagine 2-3 year olds being productive in any labour context.
No fine motor control. Abysmal gross motor control. Limited reasoning skills. Object permenance skills.
Someone with a psychology background should've rubbed their two braincells together on this issue and realize not to listen again to whoever told them this.
The news seems credible, until they talk about your domain - and you see how little sense it makes. She doesn't even care about how much sense it makes.
The insanity I hear about China from westerners beggars belief. They are completely disconnected from reality
What they say about China pales in comparison to what they say about the DPRK.
At least the DPRK is legitimately pretty opaque. China’s an open book in comparison and people still believe nonsense.
it's awful. I'm sitting down having lunch the other day, and a dad and his daughter I recognize are at the next table. my back was to them (they arrived after me) and I don't feel like socializing, so I don't turn around, I just eat my lunch and read my book. at one point I tune in again and overhear him say, "in China, to this day, women working in the fields squat and have their baby and go straight back to work." as if it's typical for 1.4 billion people.
I understand grown adults repeating obvious lies to each other (False Witnesses) but somehow hearing a dad say this to his young daughter crushed my spirits
EDIT: and every time I see this dad socially in the future I will think of it and I am no longer capable of having any respect for him
After my first trip to China years ago I was telling a director of the company I was working at how great it was and specifically how good and cheap the food was. He was genuinely gobsmacked and responded "I thought they were all starving over there"
I told the lib I used to work with about how Disneyland China has Winnie the pooh merch and actors and he actually responded "How did they get away with that?"
I begged him to stop visiting reddit, I always beg him to stop visiting reddit
That’s hilarious. I heard the same thing from a Mormon missionary about Brazil. ‘Sad what socialism did to that country’. Say what?
Apply even an ounce of critical thinking to that, a 2-3 year old working in a factory is a fucking liability. You really think goo goo ga ga ass diaper baby is going to learn how to make widgets? THINK PLEASE
Nothing is more productive than a giant room full of children crying and pissing on the floor
I don't know, I hear the USS Gerald R. Ford is doing pretty well right now.
One day a Chinese slave-baby crapped their pants.
Wanna know what they found in their diaper?
That's right, the blueprint for interstellar travel.
But at what cost!!?1!
I figure it was hyperbolic. I've always heard criticisms of child labor in sweatshops in China. I don't really know how to combat it because they never give any actual proof. I figure the rumors (or any truth if there is any) comes from the US exploiting them for cheap labor maybe?
Historically there certainly had been a lot of child labor in China (not toddlers, though), basically like in any other developing country except that China was bigger and had many more factories than the other examples, and there were of course many teenagers sent to work in various capacities in the Cultural Revolution, but it's not like that now though.
The people who are more up-to-date complain about suicide nets, 996, and penal labor. Ironically, the most infamous issues with Chinese workplace suicides (and accompanying sweatshop conditions) were from the operations of Foxconn, a Taiwanese company.
Thank you. I'll keep this in mind next time somebody brings up these arguments.
Sure I'd think they were being hyperbolic too BUT this is Americans we are talking about and our asses literally believe lies like the DPRK train pushers, so.
Repeating this here too bc people (shockingly) have too high an opinion of capitalism: Idk about 2-3 year olds in chinese factories, but there were 4 year olds in English factories described in Capital, so its the "in chinese factories" part that sounds least plausible to me tbh
Tbh there is a massive difference in ability between a 2 year old and a 4 year old.
I could see myself being a halfway okay repetitive worker at 4.
Yeah thats fair. I havent been around children that young since my brother wss that age, forget how quickly they grow
don’t u realize china is 1984 animal farm communism no food tank man???
“so we’ve been told”Funny how the rule of therapists not being supposed to talk about religion or ideology only applies when it isn't racist hatemongering. A therapist encouraging racist and hateful views in their clients is perfectly fine actually.
I'm so glad that the worst therapists I've ever gotten have just been impotent toxic positivity sort of people, I don't think I could handle a therapist saying shit like this at me without blowing up. It is such a breach of trust to say such awful things to people in a vulnerable mental state like that. In a just world they would have their license revoked.
Yeah. One time I briefly mentioned socialism, and she went on "If I had more faith in humanity, I'd be a socialist." I just left it there for the time being. Then more recently I mentioned that I had quit my job, but was hoping to do some clerical work for PSL. Not for pay, mind you, (unless they want to pay me, but I assumed it'd just be volunteer work) but to give me a task to do. I mentioned actually being a socialist this time, and she repeated the faith line and said "Someone always gets greedy. Isn't that why, historically, socialism has always failed?" I tried my best not to get angry, but I did challenge it a little bit, as per this post.
If she is trying to be a "professional" therapist, you should really needle her on this, ask her why she keeps forcing her personal political beliefs onto you instead of being neutral. Be combative if you're that sort of person. Make it clear that she isn't being the "neutral and impartial" person she thinks she is being, but she is actively choosing a worldview and pressuring you to adopt that same worldview and it is making you feel uncomfortable. Make it clear that just because she frames her opinions as questions it doesn't magically make them impartial and true.
Or maybe look for a better therapist. I don't think I could go back to a therapist that was this comfortable with upsetting their clients like this.
She's probably the only queer therapist I'm going to find in my area, and therefore one of the friendliest towards trans folk like me. I can put up with this, but when they're dismissive of my queer identity I get more upset. I think she's mostly good for me, she just has some bad takes on leftism. Which I also won't get anything better in that spot in my area either.
Oof, I wasn't even really thinking about it like that, it's always unfortunate when they are the "best of the worst". I have major trust issues, so any therapist that feels manipulative or dismissive, even unintentionally, I will not have any tolerance of them after that, but you're obviously going for different issues than I do.
I think you could still maybe make it clear that her opinions on socialism aren't helpful and just make you worry and make it harder to open up about everything else (if it does so), if you feel like you can't be honest with your therapist then it probably isn't worth going at all, though again, that's just my personal opinion and might not be relevant to your situation. I have heard how awful therapists can be in the states, I'm sorry you have to go through so much bullshit just so you can get help with your problems.
Sorry, I feel like I'm arguing when that's not my intention. I really do appreciate your concern!
It's alright, you never felt combative to me, I was more going "I think I'm overstepping my bounds here and assuming too much about the situation and what I would do." when it isn't about me, it's about you feeling safe and comfortable and able to discuss your problems with someone who can help.
What does her faith line actually mean? Does she think you're effectively a monarchist and it's a question of having faith in a monarch?
No, I mean the thing she had said earlier about "If I had more faith in humanity, I'd be a socialist." She seems to believe that socialism is the dictatorship of one dude and they'll get greedy and corrupt and deplete national resources. In my head I said "It takes more faith to be a capitalist," but that didn't find its way out of my mouth.
That's what I meant by "effectively a monarchist," so I'm sorry for being unclear.
Speaking for myself, if I was confronted with a line like that, I'd simply say that I support democracy (majoritarian rule, which in our society necessarily means proletarian rule) and to the extent that a historical project wasn't democratic, I don't think that's what we should do, but letting capitalists run society has the same basic problems as having any other type of minoritarian rule. "But what if people support something bad," That's what political agitation and education are for, you can't depoliticize politics in a class society, but at least the people have a common class interest that encompasses the vast majority of the population and can be appealed to, unlike with a ruling elite.
Yeah. She made some comments about how she wishes everything wasn't ruled by money, but even then she seems to be missing the big picture. I think she just doesn't have a lot of politics besides the vibes we get growing up and doesn't think that's a problem. I get that about democracy and it necessarily being proletarian rule, but so many people have this thought that socialism runs counter to democracy because of that same vibes-based education. I think I'd have to do a lot of agitation to change her mind, and I'm just seeing her once a month to help deal with my anxiety and depression.
Yeah, it doesn't seem like a great use of your time and I didn't mean to sound like I was trying to explain socialism to you (again, sorry), I was just trying to think of a very succinct way of countering those sorts of lines.
Probably the most realistic solution is just to tell her that you don't want to hear her opinion on socialism because you have such a limited time.
You're good, no need to apologize! I'll keep those responses in mind, though, because there are some people I'd like to turn left. Yeah, I just usually don't bring up socialism because I know this is where it'd lead. I just felt like I should mention to her that I'm not just going to rot on the couch doing nothing, and that included bringing up the PSL. She did seem interested when I told her they did a lot of organizing in Minnesota.
A lot of people in western countries think socialism is basically a hippie commune where it's all carrots and no sticks in society. And the system isn't really changed by the revolution, it just has the currently bad parts ripped out: cops, prisons, bosses, ownership class, etc. are removed and society operates on trust and goodwill instead.
Imperial core-style anarchists unfortunately encourage this interpretation.
Under her understanding of socialism one would require a lot of faith in every one for an imaginary system like that to work.
In a just world they would have their license revoked.
-are you sure about that?Well I suppose in a just world, someone so casually racist wouldn't be able to get a job as a therapist at all, or their casual racism would've been confronted and addressed years before they started trying to get their degree, but that's just kind of semantics at this point.
2 year olds?? psh that's nothing, I hear they've got newborn babies working in sweatshops over there. women give birth right on the assembly line and it's straight to work, kiddo
There are sweatshops, endless sweatshops, where human beings are no longer born, we are grown. For the longest time I wouldn't believe it, and then I saw the sweatshops with my own eyes. Watch them liquefy the dead so they could be fed intravenously to the living. And standing there, facing the pure horrifying precision, I came to realize the obviousness of the truth. What is China? Control. China is a commie generated dream world, built to keep us under control in order to change a human being into this.
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:
"...a three year old can't work in a factory, they barely have object permanence."
Dont need object permanence to repeat the same action over and over or you get beat
... you do though! You can't "do certain action" or understand that doing that action prevents beatings until your brain develops past a certain point!
every week I'm boundlessly grateful that my therapist has the politics of Jennifer Welch (i.e. no-enemies-to-my-left radlibism) and that I can talk to her about how much I hate this place and how much I loathe the Dems and how I want to be more active as a communist organizer but also wanting to get a K-Visa and she just nods and essentially goes "yeah that’s a fair assessment."
Sorry you have to deal with one that argues with you like that, they're generally not supposed to be outwardly contentious like that, especially with session-trivial disagreements. I hope better options for you crop up in the future
My guess is she sees socialism as a dangerous and possibly self-destructive ideology and wants to protect me from it? Or maybe the brainworms really are that deep that she can't help but argue. But yeah, thank you for the well-wishes!
Socialism is when we kick our adult feet up and make all the babies do the work.
Meanwhile in the Glorious West, we have Boss Baby
Checkmate, gombulists
🫘
