They make good points until this bullshit:
But if video games are ever going to be taken seriously as an artistic medium, they have to grow up, and that means learning how to love authentically.
No. That take is horseshit. They don’t have to do anything to be taken seriously as art. They already are. If you can’t see it because it doesn’t tick some of your boxes that’s a you issue.
Some games are art. Some are money grabs or outright scams.
And that’s true for any “artistic” medium as well
Valid
You’ve gotta admit that there’s something satisfying about the perfection of the duct tape strip, and the fact that some bozo paid another bozo mega bucks for it.
I would actually agree with him in some level. Art should always be evolving, and it should be looking past its comfort zones, even past areas many others have failed, to do so.
It doesn’t need to be a form of “disqualification” as he says, but there IS value in applying change even just for its own sake.
BG3 romances seem shallow and kind of transactional because it is a mix of characters who don’t know each other having a whirlwind romance in a relatively short period of time. They are easily comparable to the majority of romances in movies and books with similar circumstances.
The other thing that is always going to make romances in games difficult to do in more detail is a lack of real world senses that play a huge part in attraction. Smells, tone of voice, flirting based on what is cutrently happening are either impossible or extremely time consuming to implement in a computer game. Like you could luck into picking the right cologne for a character or something, but that is along the same lines as picking the right voice lines.
Not saying it is literally impossible to do, but it really is a monumental task to implement relationships that don’t seem forced or obviously mechanical in a video game. If they did implement one perfectly, the randomness of real life would make it nearly impossible to have a romance as there are so many things that can easily derail a relationship forming including just not being in the mood to reciprocate affection because of some completely unrelated event!
BG3 dialogue and story is also crafted to be “over the top”, where everything is always stressful and everyone has some crazy insane magical high stakes backstory. Of course the romance, such as it is, isn’t going to feel realistic.
But iwant my romance with the frog-lady to be realistic!
Do you mean the lady from WhoVille?
I never managed to romance Auntie :/
I think it also makes them feel more shallow because the characters are all “player-sexual” to use an industry term. Basically every character is into you if you want them to be.
I’d love to see more games have characters with preset likes and dislikes and how you’ve built and played your character will determine who will be interested (and who will shoot you down!)
Part of me thinks the devs should just be more settled about having more relationships that don’t involve the player. You get 5 supporting characters, and character A, in their “relationship event” with you, admits that they have feelings for character C and want your advice because they don’t know how to express it.
I also would love to see this!
Some games in the past were like this but people complained because “I want the goth baddie but I am not an 80 year old man with a white beard named Santa Claus, this game’s romance system sucks.”
Not just romance systems… Especially with younger crowd unless 100% of the content is accessible on a playthrough they will feel left out. Cosmetics, items, weapons whatever be it. Makes everything seem more shallow because of their fomo.
Astarion shot me down :(
🫡
Astarion has the best relationship narratives IMO, and was by far more satisfying than any other. He’s been broken for so long, forced to seduce thousands of people, never having any of his own choices. When you finally show him that he has that now, that when the REAL relationship with him starts.
The game already works this way I believe. There was a point during EA that each character was way too keen on the PC though. Gale in particular was a problem they had to go back and fix.
Do you mean the being shot down part? Cause the devs have said in interviews that they purposely made the characters player-sexual.
Yeah I mean the way you play your character, depending on the likes/dislikes of the companions does have an effect on whether or not you can romance them.
They are otherwise player-sexual in that they are all evidently bisexual.
Sounds like it’s a little more nuanced than I thought. In my play throughs it seemed like everyone was always ready to go!
Shallow and rushed, since it has to develop in a few dozen hours of gameplay with a limited number of NPCs!
B²G3 romances seem shallow and kind of transactional because it is a mix of characters who don’t know each other having a whirlwind romance in a relatively short period of time.
Add the sense of “we don’t know how much longer we have” and the general dramatisation of High Fantasy and you have one hell of an intense honeymoon phase.
After that, the game doesn’t really cover how your relationship plays out, aside from that short party epilogue. Sure, your shared experience may make for a strong start, but the arguments, the differences, the difficulties adjusting to one another while also grappling with the trauma of what you went through and the challenge of finding your place in this new world… there’s a lot left open that just doesn’t fit in this game’s frame.
There’s genres of games that are supposed to be relationship sims and nothing else. The relationships and characters are still hollow and would only draw in the loneliest people.
This is a really weird way to argue a weird point. I think, the main issue is, most games are closer to boardgames than movies. And the author places them too close to movies.
And you can build boardgames for romance, sure. But, unless the romance is part of the core game loop, it’s something that breaks the flow of the game. So it gets abstracted away, or the romance is expressed in terms of the core game mechanics. Which, in video games are often reaching the next scene, dialog trees or gaining stat points.
And, even if you think they’re closer to movies, then most video games are closest to action movies. And here the word romance isn’t used. It’s just renamed love interest and is often just the price for saving the world, but the core ‘mechanics’ are the same.
And most romances will start as fun flings full of hope, not with the nitty-gritty logistics. The logistics will come later, sure. But most Video-Games are set romantically in a few weeks of summer camp, so there is no need to figure out logistics just yet.
Open-World games, that have a character that travels around and meets people as part of their daily lives, sure.
But this argument would apply to games like the Elder Scrolls series. Not Cyberpunk 2077 in which the main character is dying and has only weeks left to live.
But, I do concede that most romances do fall flat once you’ve reached the top. You had your sex-scene and you may have your kisses, your hugs, the new greetings in dialogue, and the characters return to being cardboard in the background. I know it’s hard to implement, but still, it would be nice, if they could then play a larger role in, for example, the main story.
Romance isn’t the most logical thing, and a video game lives in a computer and kinda has to be logical.
So it’s either going to be some scripted events written by a human which the player doesn’t have control over, or it’ll be along the lines give item X to character Y, select dialog option B and now she loves you. The first doesn’t fit the medium and the second is a really terrible way to portray a relationship.
Maybe some LLM algorithms might portray romance better? But I don’t feel good about that. Don’t want to burn crazy amounts of electricity talking to a LLM character in a video game and the game would have to be online only, which means it cold be shut down at any time.
Even if we have the tech to have an LLM kind of algorithm that wouldn’t use too much power and could run locally, it would really suck if you couldn’t progress in a game because the LLM decided they don’t like you. So it would still be a side thing, and not important to the main story of a game.
Oh, I do think that romance is logical. After all its purpose is to ensure the survival of the genes. It’s just that the romance algorithms and the hardware they’re running on have been hotfixed for millions of years so there are insane amounts of technical debt, that make the algorithm hard to figure out.
And in romance movies there is always a pursuer and a pursued party. And, as audience, we can clearly identify the correct behavior for the pursuer. But, if you identify with the pursued party, then these romance movies will feel like it’s all chance, because the pursued often has very little agency.
A scoring system just formalizes this behaviour. And in video games, you as a main character have all the in-game agency. A romance, that would move the agency to an NPC will feel like the “OMG it’s you, the grand champion” guy from Oblivion, or like a courier desperately trying to talk to you no matter where you are.
And I generally don’t have an issue with local LLMs in video games, but I really don’t think there is a way to make them work. Dialog trees are a really good way to give a player some control, while not overwhelming them with choice.
LLMs might work by allowing characters to acknowledge things you have done outside their own little storylines.
And, sure, I can type in my question. But this will be clunky and imo break the flow of the game. And I really don’t want to sit infront of a computer and be talking out loud to some NPCs.
To me finding the right dialog option or getting the right item just doesn’t cut it. In real life a lot depends on the head space both people are in and what’s going on in their lives when they’re talking with each other. You could have a max “score” with someone, but they’re kinda seeing someone or maybe you have a family emergency you need to deal with and things don’t work out. If you have characters that are just waiting for you to select the correct options and have nothing else going on in their lives, it’s all very flat and oversimplified.
Some things just don’t follow the rules of logic, or if they do, it’s too complicated to model mathematically. But maybe people would get value from an approximation of a cheesy romance novel? Not really sure what the goal is tho. Is it realistic encounters or something emulating something not at all realistic but some people enjoy anyway?
You know how people build relationships in meatspace? Lore dumps.
“Thank you for coming. It was nice of your friend to help us meet.”
" I was there. I was there 3000 years ago … when Isildur took the Ring. I was there the day the strength of men failed. I led Isildur into the heart of Mount Doom, where the Ring was forged, the one place It could be destroyed! It should have ended that day, but evil was allowed to endure. Isildur kept the ring. The line of kings is broken. There’s no strength left in the world of Men. They’re scattered, divided, leaderless."
“…o-kay. Would you like to share some entrées or … Let’s order some drinks first.”
Yes, also meatspace romance is built not just on the pivotal but a whole lot on the mundane.
I just ignore all romance in games because even at its best; it’s cringy and makes me feel weird and uncomfortable.
Nice, just like in real life
No. Because you see, and may not quite understand, real life is totally different than what is depicted in games. This is primarily because video games aren’t real, and therefore cannot reciprocate affection.
On the other hand, romance in the real world is life affirming. It is among the most beautiful things human beings are capable of. It is a gift and one I have been able to share with my partner for over 18 years.
Okay, so it’s a personal opinion based on experience. Cool, good for you. Glad that’s cleared up.
I’m pretty sure the majority of the entire planet thinks real world romance beats pretending pixelated characters actually give a shit about you.
But clearly your personal opinion is that of the minority- and is no less valid.
Idk man this comment was far cringier than any video game romance that I’ve ever seen.
When you grow up, it won’t be.
The opposite in fact. Sounds like a 10th grader wrote that.
Keep telling yourself whatever works for ya.
And you keep on being yourself Mr cornball
Yeah, I really just wish it wasn’t in games since it’s almost always done poorly yet also the only way to get some backstory which feels forced and dumb.
And SO much resources spent on it that could be used for legitimate content- more story, better content, stability passes.
Romances are stupid shallow fluff that serve no purpose except to draw in lonely people. They’re idiotic and predatory.
Guilty as charged
and horny! sometimes its not enough that they are naked!
For me, romances are just so they can carry shit that I find.
Pack mule romance. Love it.
One of the videogame characters I was most attached to was Agro the horse in shadow of the colossus.
You listen to Shadowheart’s story in Baldur’s Gate 3 and, since you pass no judgment, fall in love.
Not that different than a lot of the relationships I had when I was young to be honest.
Well, I listen to Shadowheart’s story and since I’m a warlock who pacted with an evil master just because I wanted to do cool tricks, I felt I shouldn’t judge. (Also she is a ride or die goth girl).
Though the frog lady is the best.
As a Durge i’m always like “tell me more, i’m intrigued.” She loves that answer.
I like the head of the bandit troop under the burning city.
There is of course more to it, but this was actually a key factor in my own marriage lol
“I’m horny and they’re hot” leads to a lot of shallow “understanding” of someone’s shitty behavior.
It’s kinda sorta not a game in many ways but dispatch did a decent job I thought.
Or, and maybe I’m the weird one here, we shouldn’t include romance in games. We absolutely shouldn’t have the players’ avatars involved in those romances. Games are escapist fantasy, and I don’t believe it’s helpful to allow anyone to experience romantic things in an escapist context - that should be constrained to the real world.
Then again, I think the only game I’ve played with a narrative that I really appreciate anymore is Final Fantasy Tactics Advance. So maybe I’m just old and jaded.
I think this essentially gets at the same point of criticism: Do it properly or don’t do it at all. If you want romance, then write a romantic story with real love and loss that allows players to experience these feelings through their characters, but not shallow “romance options” like the ones that are included in so many games nowadays and that feel like the equivalent of reading two pages of a character’s diary.
I am ok with having transactional vg relationships. I mean, if I could marry in factorio I would probably automate it and have an exponentially increasing number of partners.
not what’s meant when they say “the factory must grow”, but let them cook
God I hate this type of argument about arts and entertainment. The logical conclusion of “this can be unhealthy for some people so nobody should make it” is “dumb everything down for the lowest common denominator.”
I don’t believe it’s just unhealthy for “some people”. I think it’s unhealthy for everyone, and for our society as a whole. Simulating romantic relationships with fictional characters is a bad idea, because it dulls our sense of the real thing, and removes the need to intact with real people. It removes the ability to fail. A video game can’t be true enough to life that one mistake can ruin a relationship, because even if that’s the case, the player can reload his save. It becomes too comfortable and too safe.
As far as dumbing things down… is Civilization (as a series, let’s not split every hair here) dumbed-down? How about Doom? Beyond All Reason? Factorio and Mindustry?
I’m not saying that games shouldn’t make us feel. I don’t even hate the idea of a romantic story involving characters who are not the PCs (or linear “romances” like Final Fantasy 8). I’m talking about the “Romance Options” that became prevalent in games because of Mass Effect. The player’s avatar should not be involved in player-driven romantic relationships.
Love in the Ultima IV sense? sure. Love in the Mass Effect/Dragon Age sense? No.
We need videogame romances where you are both so enamored with each other; every answer is stupid and cringe but to them it’s the most romantic thing ever. Also the sex is silly and awkward and kinda gross, but they both have fun, a good laugh and enjoy it.
Gamers aren’t ready for that level of realism.
Dialog wheel: “You are cuter!”
“No! You are cute”
“You are the cutest!”
You are my cutie pie!
Party rolls a D20 to avoid dying of cringe
There comes a point where it is too real, and when the loading screen comes up and you see yourself in the reflection of the screen, that’s going to create a really negative experience for a lot of people, not just gamers.
Which is why everyone should just play on anti-glare screens! They aren’t reflective enough for that to happen!
I heard about a very silly, cartoony game that applies this as a basis: Buster Jam. The two leads are in a relationship, but it doesn’t affect their lazy heroic dynamic in any way. Funny to have a villain remark “…you and your GIRLFRIEND…” and not get corrected.
May I recommend Haven then
Haven Gonna check it out!
I think that romance in video games is… well it’s just like romance in any other medium. It exists to paint a picture in your head of what love looks like, because that’s something they can sell to you.
If you want a game with natural feeling, organic romance then that’s going to be the game. Full stop, simply having a cast of 10 characters already makes this very complicated.
They also need to stop placating to people’s sexual desires. It’s been breeding people into believing sex is the penultimate goal of relationships and romance in general.
It would also accommodate some Aces I know that just find the concept unappealing at best and repulsive at worst. Having to click through scenes you don’t wanna see to get to the good stuff is just annoying, and the impression that your relationship is only “complete” once you do the deed obviously also isn’t great.
Conversely, decoupling sex from romance could help destigmatise it, particularly in monoamorous games. You don’t need to be fully committed to someone to do the special thing with them (though obviously cheating when you are committed is a bad thing). People who do it more casually aren’t being irreverent about something sacred. There needs to be consent, there needs to be trust, maybe make the player “earn it” in some way, but normalise the notion that it’s a thing people can do.
Either way: make it an option, not an obligation.
It’s been breeding people
Perfect choice of words
One of my favorite video game romances takes place in the Legend of Heroes: Trails series. When first described on paper in a quick summary, it’s something some people might roll their eyes at, but it’s built very well.
Something that had to be nailed down early about it was, it really couldn’t be optional, based on “relationship score”, or even happen on its own time. One of the best scenes in this duology centers around a huge character reveal, which puts forward the confession of love all at the same time; while that relationship had been a slow tease through individual scenes, it suddenly became a huge, very important part of this large conflict.
I definitely think for better relationships in games, we need a lot more focus on characters, and we need to stop viewing the relationships as rewards; sadly I don’t have many further ideas than railroaded stories, but I think there’s probably more options out there.
Trails in The Sky are so good. The franchise lost me mid-Cold Steel, unfortunately it became something else and I wasn’t the target audience.
You mean a dense protagonist harem anime?
Yes, among other things.
my favorite is fallout 4 after just watching your wife/husband get murdered you can almost immedeately start a harem of lovers 😂
Well back on the 2077s men were well known to be animals.
I think i might have touched this subject before, but im really torn how many games handle sexuality of the characters.
I kind of hate how in many games every dateable character are main character-sexual. I feel like it robs the characters some depth when they dont care of the character is he/she/other. It makes the characters feel bland amd plastic.
But on the other hand games are a medium where player should be able to craft their own story and feel accepted, so devs should limit and hinder the player as little as they can. Especially when the real world can be so hostile towards the sexual minorities.
