Re: Proposal: Integrating DAAP Functionality into QUIC

Lucas Pardue <lucas@lucaspardue.com> Sun, 13 July 2025 02:19 UTC

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Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2025 03:19:18 +0100
From: Lucas Pardue <lucas@lucaspardue.com>
To: Marten Seemann <martenseemann@gmail.com>, Edward Aylward <aylward.edward@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: Proposal: Integrating DAAP Functionality into QUIC
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Hi Edward

On Sat, Jul 12, 2025, at 16:48, Marten Seemann wrote:
> It’s difficult to provide meaningful feedback without access to the draft itself, but my initial question would be: what’s the justification for defining new QUIC frame types? In general, QUIC frames, aside from STREAM and DATAGRAM, are intended to modify transport-layer behavior. Based on the description, DAAP appears to be an application-layer protocol, and it seems more appropriate for it to be layered on top of QUIC rather than extending the transport itself.
+1 Marten's points

Generally, embedding non-transport capabilities into the transport layer is an anti-pattern. Furthermore, there is no common QUIC API, which makes exposing transport features that applications rely on a difficult task.

I'd first encourage you to explore some options for running your protocol over HTTP/3 or WebTransport. Both of which run over QUIC and provide clear explanations of how QUIC streams or datagrams can be used to exchange application protocol data. Then you might get a clearer idea what, if any, inefficiences you see.

Cheers
Lucas
> 
> On Fri, 11 Jul 2025 at 16:44, Edward Aylward <aylward.edward@gmail.com> wrote:
>> *Subject:* Proposal: Integrating DAAP Functionality into QUIC
>> 
>> *To:* quic-chairs@ietf.org
>> *Cc:* quic@ietf.org
>> *From:* Ed Aylward aylward.edward@gmail.com
>> *Date:* July 11, 2025
>> 
>> 
>> Dear Lucas and Matt,
>> 
>> I hope you’re both doing well.
>> 
>> My name is Ed Aylward, and I’m the author of *draft-aylward-daap-v2*, which outlines the Distributed AI Accountability Protocol (DAAP). It’s a framework designed to help maintain human oversight over autonomous AI systems by requiring regular, verifiable communication with a designated authority.
>> 
>> I’m reaching out to propose a new QUIC extension that would allow DAAP to run natively over QUIC. The goal is to move beyond HTTP-over-TCP, embedding DAAP’s core functions directly into the transport layer by defining:
>> 
>>  • New QUIC frame types for behavioral check-ins, policy updates, and emergency signaling
>> 
>>  • A TLS extension (`daap_identity`) to establish agent identity at the start of the QUIC handshake
>> 
>>  • Multiplexed streams to handle real-time control, telemetry, and enforcement in parallel
>> 
>> This integration would provide tighter security guarantees, better performance, and more responsive control, especially valuable for environments where speed, reliability, and accountability are critical.
>> 
>> If the working group is open to reviewing this idea, either as a contribution to QUIC or as an individual draft submission, I’d be happy to share:
>> 
>>  • A working draft in the IETF format
>> 
>>  • Notes on how the implementation maps to current QUIC capabilities
>> 
>>  • Example use cases in sectors like robotics, edge AI, and smart infrastructure
>> 
>> Thanks for considering this. I appreciate your time and would welcome any suggestions or guidance on next steps.
>> 
>> 
>> Best regards,
>> *Edward Richard Aylward, Jr.*
>> Email: aylward.edward@gmail.com
>> DAAP GitHub: https://github.com/ELF-GUARD/DAAP/
>> ORCID: 0000-0003-0313-6993
>>

Proposal: Integrating DAAP Functionality into QUIC Edward Aylward
Re: Proposal: Integrating DAAP Functionality into… Marten Seemann
Re: Proposal: Integrating DAAP Functionality into… Lucas Pardue
Re: Proposal: Integrating DAAP Functionality into… Ian Swett
Re: Proposal: Integrating DAAP Functionality into… Edward Aylward
Re: Proposal: Integrating DAAP Functionality into… Edward Aylward